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SCOUG-HELP Mailing List Archives

Return to [ 01 | August | 2001 ]

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Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 20:18:03 PDT
From: "Dallas E. Legan" <dallasii@kincyb.com >
Reply-To: scoug-help@scoug.com
To: scoug-help@scoug.com
Subject: SCOUG-Help: Re: web pages never load / Browser rant

=====================================================
If you are responding to someone asking for help who
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> *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*
> Message: M0006314892 # in packet :#5.
> Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 21:46:11 PDT
> From: Benedict G Archer
> To: scoug-help@scoug.com
> Subject: SCOUG-Help: web pages never load
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 21:46:11 PDT
> Sender: scoug-help-owner
> Reply-To: scoug-help@scoug.com
> From: Benedict G Archer
> To: scoug-help@scoug.com
> Subject: SCOUG-Help: web pages never load
>
> =====================================================
> If you are responding to someone asking for help who
> may not be a member of this list, be sure to use the
> REPLY TO ALL feature of your email program.
> =====================================================
>
> Superslurp may get past whatever the problem is, but I'd rather filter
> out the adds. Maybe I'll try the "real man's" text only browser that
> Dallas uses? Tom Watson mentioned it in his notes. I'd really like to
> not see the ads. But it would be nice to understand what's going
> on--your experiments may be illuminating.
>
> Ben
>

My name is mentioned, so I have to hop into this.
(Sorry if I've only been paying attention to this thread with
one eye.)

My 'text mode browser talk'.

There are 5 I know of.
1) Lynx
This is the most well known one, probably from a lot
of people using it through BBS/FreeNet connections at the dawn
of general public Internet access.
It has continued to develope since then, with capabilities
to call up alternate programs for URL schema,
external viewers for graphics etc..
It's probably the most configurable text mode browser.,
So configurable you can add some of the features that W3M
has built in with enough trickery.
(Personal plug, the first of probably 3 things I should have at
Columbia.edu/kermit,
http://www.kermit-project.org/case20.html)
It's biggest weak point is poor support for frames, but even
this can be configured around.
SSL enabeled version is available on Hobbes.
(Using this on my Linux machine I've been doing my online banking.)
Lynx is actually a direct descendant of an old Gopher client,
and as such is probably politicly incorrect since it is a
reminder of the evolutionary (vrs. alledged revolutionary)
nature of technology.

2) w3m
This one can handle at least one thing some older graphic
browsers, like IBM Web Explorer, can't - frames.
It also allows you to 'I' on links to graphics and view them with
an external viewer.
Also, it has built in provision for escalating to your
choice of 3 other browsers if it doesn't have enough horsepower
for the page you're viewing.
I'm in the process of putting together a version of this
that is more HPFS/FAT friendly.
w3m really started out as a html/network aware pager,
and the developer carried it to the logical extreme.
He doesn't plan on adding any new features to it.

3) links
Apparently named to introduce a measure of confusion to
any discussion of browsers, this one is not as far along
as w3m, but is also frame capable and fairly stable.
Available from Hobbes for OS/2.
(In fact, search there turned up a package of supplemental
software to help it work on OS/2 smoother.)

4) debris
This one is another upstart following the breakthrough
of w3m, but is not so far along in development,
and my experience is that it isn't too stable yet,
but is promising.

5) Almost forgot this one, but the WWW.org line mode browser.
If my reading of Tim Berners Lee's book is correct, I think this
was the second browser developed.
It is unique in that it can be run on a dumb/(literal) teletype terminal,
lacking any fancy ability to reposition the cursor etc.
I think you can download this from WWW.org and build it from
scratch, and for OS/2 you'll have to port www.org's library
to get it going.
An easier way to use it is simply to telnet to
telnet.www.org, where publicly accessible sessions are available.
Outstanding time travel experience.

General comments.

A) None of these browsers are Javascript capable.
I'm not too sure this is of any significance, because
Javascript seems to be of little real use:
I) Preliminary Validation of data
answers to questions on forms that are already too nosey.
II) Bizarre forms of links wrapped in 'Javascript:' with no
domain name in the URL, just a /directory/filename
For some reason, they just didn't want to just have a normal
link, they had to show off that they know Javascript.
Sometimes they'll wrap all this inside the script,
so it appears as a blank page. Apparently they
liked Tansmeta's sense of drama before IPOing.
III) calling up pages inside little windows inside your current page view.
For some reason they are afraid you will not come back to
the current page.
I've had some luck downloading the source to pages like
these and editing the source to bypass this garbage and get on with
browsing. A very educational experience.
In the case of II), you can just paste the domain name and path/filename
together and continue with browsing. There's probably some
more elegant way around that, but I haven't found it yet.
And most simply (and rationally :-) ),
you could just hit a few keys, or if you are of
the persuasion, click with the mouse, and call up a Javascript capable
browser from your session. :-)
One of the things that stuck in my mind from TBL's book was that
he didn't intend the Web to be a passive, TV like experience.
Therfore, I rewite their page on my local PC, to suite my
browsers and maybe mail their webmaster a note.

B) Banks etc. may make all sorts of claims about what browser you
must use, but my experience is that all they check for is the
user agent, and that they don't use much of the capabilities of these
other browsers. I think there really is a reason for this.
As much as compulsion by government grates on my sesibilities,
using to much fancy stuff would render the site unusable by
the handicapped, who really must use text enabled browsers.
Deviating too far from this would probably bring on American's
With Disabilities lawsuites. Free market reason:
why chase off potential customers. They probably just tell
the people who need to use Lynx etc. the work around and keep it
quiet. Also, there is probably some wisdom in staying away from
too fancy a web site simply from a security/reliability standpoint.
Have they imagined the security implications of all the fancy
stuff? Are the basics secured beyond all doubt?
If the bank is expecting lots of business, what's
the real business functionality added by downloading a
Lemon juggling some fruit while other people are waiting
to get serious business taken care of? (Sure maybe on the
front pages that are mostly gateway/ad for the real services...)
And how are they to tell if you've just turned off the graphics
for Internet Explorer?
As another point, keep in mind that, as I've found out from this,
Internet Explorer claims to be Mozilla in it's User Agent information.
How much more lacking in meaning could the 'User Agent' be?

C) None of these browses are Java capable, as far as I know.
There may be some way to kludge them to, but I haven't heard
anything about this.

D) Probably most important, these all feature automatic, on the
fly deconstruction of the WWW. (I love working that 2-bit
pseudo intellectual word into discussions. :-) )
( France: a country where absurd philosophers philosophize on the Absurd.)
Sun Tsu's first step to victory, as expressed in 'The Art of War'
is to attack the enemies stategy.
In this case their stategy is to present you with a gaudy,
smoothly orchestrated multimedia experience to bypass
your rational judgement.
Disrupting this, the so-called 'text browsers' break this up,
seperating the text from
the graphics etc., showing how much of the page is just minor
graphic gifs, does the the text stand on it's own etc.
The parts, in my mind, need to stand on their own first
to really have any synergetic effect.
As B. G. Archer has apparently noticed, almost all the ads are
graphics. There *never* is the slightest attempt
to place any text ads on the sites, not even where some could be.
It could be there, but just never seems to
be put in to annotate the graphics for text browsers.

E) So to wrap this up, a few 'screen shots'
(apologies if you're using proportional fonts)

**********************************************************************

bg image(graphics/scougback.gif)
+------------------+ [scougmed]
| Taken our |
| survey? | Note: Our monthly general meeting is the 3rd Saturday of
+------------------+ the month in Orange.

Next Meeting: Aug Recent Additions
18th
Items in red are new since your last visit
Last Meeting:
Browsers! Making GhostView Work With Netscape

Meeting Directions The combination of Russell Lang's GhostView front end and
GhostScript for OS/2 version 7 makes a handy dandy pdf
Calendar of Events viewer for Netscape. This tip tells you how to set it up.
(7/31/2001)
Email Lists
OS/2 Browsers
SIGs (Internet,
General Interest, The web browser is becoming more and more integral to our
Programming, Network lives, so it makes sense to use one that works well for
, more..) you. Included with this overview are quick looks at
browsers you may want to consider. (7/27/2001)
Online Chats
July '01 - Browser Bonanza
[ ]
[Search] The browser that most people seemed interested in was
Mozilla, but there was lots of interest in all the
browsers for OS/2. (7/25/2001)
Features:
AOL - A Quick Look
Mr. Know-It-All
AOL is a comprehensive Internet tool, especially useful
Ink for newbies. But, it's not what we normally think of when
we think of a browser for use on OS/2. (7/25/2001)
Download!
Netscape - A Quick Look
OS/2 For You At a
Glance Netscape 4.61 may still be the best all around browser for
OS/2 users. (7/21/2001)

Quick Survey: IBM Web Broswer - A Quick Look

Which new browser The IBM Web Browser is the IBM version of Mozilla and only
have you available through Software Choice. (7/21/2001)
experimented with
the most? Web Explorer - A Quick Look
Mozilla from
( ) IBM's Software Web Explorer is the original web browser for OS/2. How's
Choice it doing today? (7/21/2001)
( ) Mozilla/
Warpzilla HotJava - A Quick Look
( ) Mozilla EMX
Build The HotJava browser from Sun is really intended for
( ) Mozilla XFree/86 software developers, but any system with Java can run it.
None of the (7/21/2001)
( ) above, I'm
sticking with Mozilla - A Quick Look
Netscape
[Vote] View results The volunteer developed Mozilla could be our best long
term browser solution. (7/21/2001)
--------------
Supporting Warpstock Opera - A Quick Look
October 6-8, 2001
-------------- Opera is the browser to watch says Dave Watson, SCOUG's
Navigation: resident Internet guru. (7/21/2001)

20 Most Recent XWarpzilla - A Quick Look
Documents
Want a challenge? The X-windows version of Warpzilla is
Search Archives tough to even get installed... (7/21/2001)

Index by date, title Ink - Printing and Scanning on the OS/2 Platform - July
, author, category. 2001

-------------- The new versions of GhostView and GhostScript have Tony
[warptechbanner] gushing with enthusiasm. (7/16/2001)
SCOUG was there!
President's Message - July 2001
--------------
SCOUG: Tony updates us on SCOUG's currect events. (7/11/2001)

Membership Form Mr. KIA - July, 2001

Business Never shy of controversy, Mr. Know-It-All advances his
views on eCS and the article Peter Skye wrote about its
Past Presentations presentation at SCOUG in May. (7/6/2001)

Credits Download! - July 2001

Submissions Every month Gary Wong keeps you up-to-date - and tells you
where to download - OS/2 applications and related files.
Contact SCOUG (7/2/2001)

Copyright SCOUG June '01 - DFSee

-------------- DFSee's author, Jan van Wijk, came from the Netherlands to
[exposmall] show SCOUG all its features at our June '01 meeting. We
Pictures from Sept. were impressed! (7/1/2001)
1999
SCOUG Mailing Lists
--------------
SCOUG's email lists provide members with information
The views expressed between meetings. All of the lists are also archived on
in these articles the web site for handy referrence.(6/16/2001)
are those of their
authors. President's Message - June 2001

Copyright 2001, Tony's President's Message for June got lost in cyberspace
Southern California and arrived quite late... (6/11/2001)
OS/2 User Group
A Correction to eCS

Kim Cheung makes a correction to Peter Skye's article
about the eCS roll out at SCOUG in May. (6/9/2001)

eCS

While eComStation has generated a lot of enthusiasm
recently, there are also skeptics amongst us. Certainly
there are things you should consider. (6/8/2001)

**********************************************************************
Can you tolerate this rendition of a framed page?
(right hand side clipped off here since I don't know the width
of your screen, and this static printout can't shift right/left
as the browser can.)

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emptypixel Books/Music/Quick Find Navigation Bar [ ] [Go]
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**********************************************************************

....


Regards,
Dallas E. Legan II / leganii@surfree.com / dallasii@kincyb.com

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The Southern California OS/2 User Group
P.O. Box 26904
Santa Ana, CA 92799-6904, USA

Copyright 2001 the Southern California OS/2 User Group. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

SCOUG, Warp Expo West, and Warpfest are trademarks of the Southern California OS/2 User Group. OS/2, Workplace Shell, and IBM are registered trademarks of International Business Machines Corporation. All other trademarks remain the property of their respective owners.