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Date:	Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:59:55 PST8
From:	Peter Skye <pskye@peterskye.com >
Reply-To:	scoug-programming@scoug.com
To:	scoug-programming@scoug.com
Subject:	SCOUG-Programming: Open Source Object Rexx

Content Type: text/plain

Lynn H. Maxson wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I have no idea how or why you and Peter get on these merry
> go rounds. Peter wants to express a value by specifying a
> fraction with a numerator and denominator. You want to
> express one that cannot be done in this manner. Both of you,
> however, can express that value to whatever degree you
> want with variable precision, fixed point, "base-N" arithmetic.

We can do this in C, Lynn. We don't need PL/I for this.

My point (I can't speak for Greg) is that sometimes you want exactly the
value that you put in, not an approximation no matter how low the error
of the approximation.

> However, 'without bounds' works until you have to do an
> actual calculation. You cannot store in memory an unbounded
> value. You cannot have a field of infinite length. At some
> point you have to say, "This far and no further." You should
> have a programming language that allows you to specify that
> as exactly as you want with full implementation support.

Righty-o. Try the value 1/3. I can store it as a numerator-denominator
pair in two bytes, or I can store it as a close approximation using "all
available memory".

To switch back to the main line, this was an example for the more
forceful argument about available "data types".

> After this point you seem to have totally ignored the fact that
> all programming languages are specification languages. Not
> all programming and thus specification languages are
> self-defining and due to this also self-extensible. If they are
> not, you require at least a second language to define or
> extend them.

One reason I like Assembler is that you don't have to worry about it.

> If you look at LEX and YACC or go to the
> introductory sections of an IBM language reference manual,
> you will set those "secondary" languages expressing their
> syntactical rules. All I've done is bring those rules within the
> language so that you don't need a separate language nor a
> separate section.

Is it open source? You sure haven't been sharing with the rest of us .
. .

> You may not see the value of a "source only" system with a
> single source library in a single source language. That means
> you have a set of blinders on to what the historical effect the
> alternatives have had.

There are always restrictions, no matter what the language. Let's go
high-level and consider English, the language with more words than any
other (400,000 iirc). Now go the much-less-wordy Spanish language and
try to translate "cumbanchero" to English.

Stop restricting the data types to what your own hardware considers
"native".

> Far from tossing out everything written in different
> specification, i.e. programming, languages, where trends and
> vendor wars may render them dead, I want to offer them a
> life that extends beyond trends and vendors.

Sounds like you want to offer open source algorithms. I'll buy into
that; no programming language necessary.

> Every programming language is a specification language. If
> you have a "universal" specification language, what need do
> you have for any other?

I'll admit to very little experience with specification languages, but
here's my simple test: Can a spec written with Specification Language A
be directly convertible to Specification Language B? This seems to be
one of your favored bugaboos about programming languages; how about
SL's?

> What's the problem?

Communication. I still don't understand what you're trying to do. And
my continued poking and prodding should indicate that I'm trying to.

You show me no code or specs, but claim the project is open source. You
don't allow for simple new data types, yet claim they are
implementable. You mention your other writings and PL/E but neither is
available for perusal.

Darn it, Lynn, stop saying "No". If this project has merit, then let it
out the door.

- Peter

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